WARNING:
Explicit sexual content discussed below. Please do not read if you are concerned about the state of your soul, especially if you are not yet married.
A reader writes:
A reader writes:
My husband and I have been married for 4 years together for almost 10. I don't feel comfortable telling him that I want him to bring me to climax after he is finished. I know, I know, I should work on my communication skills but I feel really slutty and wrong for wanting to reach and orgasm too. So my solution to the problem is to do it myself. I don't feel that is a masturbation since I do it after the intercourse but I do it without him knowing ( I either leave the room or do it very quietly). What is your take on it? I do feel that he is being selfish not to think of this himself but I also understand that he needs to get up for work in 4 hours and needs to sleep.
Your 'question' has a lot of parts! I'll address it as so: if what you are doing now is wrong (i.e., objectively sinful), your attitude towards climaxing, and lastly, your communication needs.
What you are currently doing absolutely is masturbation. You are bringing yourself to climax without your husband even being present! You seek out your own pleasure completely outside the marital act and that is masturbation. Your logic that since you do it after intercourse, it's not masturbation is flawed - lots of things are done after an act, aren't they? Going to the restroom, having a sandwich - are these acts part of intercourse? Where do you draw the line if it's a timing issue - you can do it five minutes afterwards, but fifteen is too remote?
Lets avoid all that dangerous legalism and get to the heart of the matter. Your orgasm in this context in no way involves giving yourself to your husband and thus, it is masturbation. Even if you were not aware of this, you should go to confession - so you can have a fresh start. A nice spring, er, summer cleaning of your soul!
Your ideas about sex seem a bit wonky. No, not because of the masturbation issue - because of your use of the word 'slutty' in regards to your desire to climax at some point within the marital act. Why do you think that desire is slutty or wrong? That's a big issue, because sex is very good and you are meant to enjoy it totally with your husband. In fact, Pope John Paul II, while he was still Karol Wojtyla, wrote in Love and Responsibility
that husbands have a responsibility to make sure their wives orgasm! It is hard work to reprogram your mind on this issue, but I think it's worth the effort. Read the Song of Songs (Old Testament, filled with beautiful imagery about the marital embrace) and call to mind God's words in Genesis when he made man and woman "It is very good." If you need more recommendations, I encourage you to read Dr. Popcak's Holy Sex!: A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving for ways to 'redirect' that kind of thinking and Christopher West's Good News About Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching.
As for your communication issue, a lot of this depends on the context of your relationship. Do you think you and your husband are doing well in other areas? Is he normally very considerate, loving, patient, kind? Is this the one blind spot in an otherwise blissful union, excepting the normal marital tensions? If so, then help the poor man out and talk to him. Tell him how much you love and desire him, how much you enjoy making love, but that you'd like to give more of yourself to him. He might feel bad for not having thought of it before, or nervous that he doesn't know what to do; since you do know how to enjoy yourself, try taking the lead the next time you are intimate together and showing him how to please you. Be gentle and kind; pray a lot before this conversation and beg the Holy Spirit to give you the right words.
Godspeed!
Your 'question' has a lot of parts! I'll address it as so: if what you are doing now is wrong (i.e., objectively sinful), your attitude towards climaxing, and lastly, your communication needs.
What you are currently doing absolutely is masturbation. You are bringing yourself to climax without your husband even being present! You seek out your own pleasure completely outside the marital act and that is masturbation. Your logic that since you do it after intercourse, it's not masturbation is flawed - lots of things are done after an act, aren't they? Going to the restroom, having a sandwich - are these acts part of intercourse? Where do you draw the line if it's a timing issue - you can do it five minutes afterwards, but fifteen is too remote?
Lets avoid all that dangerous legalism and get to the heart of the matter. Your orgasm in this context in no way involves giving yourself to your husband and thus, it is masturbation. Even if you were not aware of this, you should go to confession - so you can have a fresh start. A nice spring, er, summer cleaning of your soul!
Your ideas about sex seem a bit wonky. No, not because of the masturbation issue - because of your use of the word 'slutty' in regards to your desire to climax at some point within the marital act. Why do you think that desire is slutty or wrong? That's a big issue, because sex is very good and you are meant to enjoy it totally with your husband. In fact, Pope John Paul II, while he was still Karol Wojtyla, wrote in Love and Responsibility
that husbands have a responsibility to make sure their wives orgasm! It is hard work to reprogram your mind on this issue, but I think it's worth the effort. Read the Song of Songs (Old Testament, filled with beautiful imagery about the marital embrace) and call to mind God's words in Genesis when he made man and woman "It is very good." If you need more recommendations, I encourage you to read Dr. Popcak's Holy Sex!: A Catholic Guide to Toe-Curling, Mind-Blowing, Infallible Loving for ways to 'redirect' that kind of thinking and Christopher West's Good News About Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching.As for your communication issue, a lot of this depends on the context of your relationship. Do you think you and your husband are doing well in other areas? Is he normally very considerate, loving, patient, kind? Is this the one blind spot in an otherwise blissful union, excepting the normal marital tensions? If so, then help the poor man out and talk to him. Tell him how much you love and desire him, how much you enjoy making love, but that you'd like to give more of yourself to him. He might feel bad for not having thought of it before, or nervous that he doesn't know what to do; since you do know how to enjoy yourself, try taking the lead the next time you are intimate together and showing him how to please you. Be gentle and kind; pray a lot before this conversation and beg the Holy Spirit to give you the right words.
A great deal of this also depends on the level of spiritual maturity, both in yourself and your husband. If you are both faithful Christians, who try to be constant in prayer and good works, attending Mass and passing on the faith to any children, then you have another level of accountability. In my opinion (take it for what it's worth) you should talk to your husband about your masturbatory habit. The Church teaches us that sin not only hurts us, not only hurts God, but hurts the entire Body of Christ. And this sin is a sin against your very marriage. How hurt would you be if you found out your husband had masturbated - and how much worse to find out he hid it from you? If you are mature Christians, I encourage you to confess this to your husband in a spirit of humility and ask him to help you be a better wife. If you have concerns about your relationship, and neither of you make your relationship with God a priority, then consider telling your husband - if you think he will be able to honestly forgive you and move forward in your marriage. This is a judgment call; talk to your priest about this when you go to confession and he'll be able to more specifically advise you in this situation.
No married person can afford to be ignorant of the danger masturbation poses to their marriage. We must be willing to face this sin together, and to see the offending spouse as our beloved in need of our help, not our condemnation. I am in the habit of asking Mr. Chastity if he is being tempted, to see if we need to be making love more often. God desires more than your current status quo for you and your husband! Pray, invite him into your marriage and your bedroom, and be hopeful that with His help, you and your husband can become truly excellent lovers.
Oh, and one last note - sometimes having the woman finish after sex can be a little, ah, messy. Men can be a little intimidated by that! It's not as much of a problem for manual stimulation, but for oral stimulation it can be a little on the intense side for many men. If that's the case, make your pleasure a goal either before he finishes (some tips towards the end of a post from last week, here) or try to finish at the same time. I'll be writing more on simultaneous orgasm later this week, so check that out when it's up.
Oh, and one last note - sometimes having the woman finish after sex can be a little, ah, messy. Men can be a little intimidated by that! It's not as much of a problem for manual stimulation, but for oral stimulation it can be a little on the intense side for many men. If that's the case, make your pleasure a goal either before he finishes (some tips towards the end of a post from last week, here) or try to finish at the same time. I'll be writing more on simultaneous orgasm later this week, so check that out when it's up.
Godspeed!
Just to clarify, it would NOT be masturbation for a woman to bring herself to climax if the her husband REFUSED to do so. St. Alphonse Ligouri considered this a matter of justice and allowed women this right.
ReplyDeletehttp://books.google.com/books?id=VV_GNSx-vy4C&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false
I do not know if this is the case for the reader or if she is simply not asking her husband or if she prefers climaxing by herself.
Whatever the situation, the question shows that there are some serious problems in the marriage and the relationship. If the resources provided don't help, I recommend the reader seek marital counseling and possibly individual counseling.
I completely agree re: marital and individual counseling. Embrace counseling - it is a good thing to be healed. I would recommend seeking a Catholic counselor, and to that end, check out the Pastoral Solutions - http://www.exceptionalmarriages.com/
DeleteIt seems to me that it is not the case that the husband is willfully refusing, but perhaps ignorant instead? If he is willfully refusing, then he needs a good confession too. I admit I had construed the question to give him the benefit of the doubt.
As to St. Alphonse Liguori, great saint that he is, we cannot take his writings as being infallible. A doctor of the Church is a great title, but we cannot take it too far. Being a doctor of the Church means that his teachings are "useful to Christians in any age." It does not mean they should be taken as Gospel, so to speak.
St. Alphonse, in the instance he proposes, which may not even apply to the situation at hand (haha), is wrong. Husband and wife do have marital rights or obligations, and that does mean that a husband and wife should strive to give one another mutual pleasure in the act. Yet when we begin to claim pleasure as a right, we are undermining the theology of gift given to us through the Theology of the Body. The dual aims of intercourse - pleasure and children - are both gifts. Gifts spouses give to one another and gifts from God. To demand either is to negate the language of the act itself, and thus to speak a lie. If we go into sex expecting pleasure and/or children, but don't get one and then say, "well, I'll just take it myself then..." what we are really doing is treating sex like a vending machine (to borrow an analogy from Dr. Greg Popcak).
This is not merely my opinion. The Magisterium also declares masturbation, always and in every instance, to be wrong. Masturbation is always gravely disordered since sexual pleasure should never be disassociated from the marital act. (CCC 2352) The Catechism lists masturbation with premarital sex, pornography, and homosexual sex as acts "gravely contrary to chastity." (CCC 2396) Thus is may never be permitted.
Thank you, as always James, for adding to the conversation - and that book you linked to is a GREAT read, I'll have to add it to my library.
The question is whether masturbation is permitted, but whether this is masturbation. Is a woman bringing herself to climax immediately after intercourse "dissociated from the marital act"?
DeleteI would have to agree with St. Alphonse that it is not. The arousal comes from the marital act, therefore, the release is associated with the act. To say otherwise would be grossly unfair to wives with insensitive husbands.
Theologians have been debating this topic for centuries. I don't think we'll resolve it in a combox. :-)
Still, such a situation shows a serious problem in a marriage, for the reasons you mention. It shows that the couple has the wrong attitude toward sex and toward each other. Such a couple probably does have plenty to confess.
I do agree that masturbation in marriage is a big problem. No good can come of it. I believe that acceptance of masturbation as "normal" along with failure to teach couples about the marriage debt is behind the epidemic of sexless marriages. You are a good wife to make sure Mr. Chastity is not overly tempted. (BTW, this does go both ways, but I'm sure you know that.)
As for the case, I am giving the reader the benefit of the doubt. (I think most marriage bloggers tend to be harder on their own sex.) I do think this husband IS being selfish. Even if he is not outright refusing to help his wife, he seems completely unconcerned with her pleasure. Wojtyla was quite critical of husbands who "left their wives hanging", so to speak.
Hopefully, this is merely a matter of ignorance, but often problems in the bedroom are reflective of problems throughout the marriage.
We shall just have to disagree, but I am fairly certain I'm right. I will admit I had not considered the case of a husband who repeatedly refuses. I pray to God that situation is few and far between.
DeleteI wholeheartedly agree about masturbation. The fact that many marriages still exist with this practice is extremely sad. It poses a great danger to the marital bond that few realize.
That is true; we do tend to be harder on our own sex. And the original reader should be aware that you are quite right - the Church in various forms has insisted that husbands must be mindful of their wives pleasure! It is part of the husbandly duty to take care of his wife in all forms and that includes in the bedroom.
Let us pray that we are all growing less selfish, day by day, in our marriages.
Very well said and a lot of great information about a lot of aspects of marriage and relationships in general! sexual intimacy problems in marriage
DeleteOnan used Tamar's body for his self-gratification just as an overt masturbator may use a piece of raw liver as a masturbation aid. The wretch used her as a piece of meat, not as a woman made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26, 27; 5:1, 2). [Sorry, but I have been castigated for saying that woman is made in the image of God just as is man.]
DeleteI strongly feel that Mrs. Chastity is a dangerous source for any sexual advice. The repetitive suggestion to go to confession is incredibly ignorant. I am a 64 year-old, Catholic male, and, yes, I successfully bring my wife to orgasm as close to 100% as I can tell. However, it is baloney to be preoccupied with doing it with moral perfection. I saw a man completely break his mind in two trying to be sexually perfect - he too was Catholic. His breakdown was a real lesson to me about human sexuality. Again, I think Mrs. Chastity is a creep who knows little about the power of human sexuality, but knows the "rules" to perfection. Simply do your best to satisfy your partner first, and do not feel guilty how you do it as long as you do not debase yourself or your spouse. From my experience, Evangelical couples have tremendous marriages and sexual lives because they believe everything is "permissible", and they not only believe this, but they also believe it should be "edifying". So if you have a rule, let it be this: if it is edifying and productive, it is permissible. I have come to the conclusion that women - much more than men - bound with their lover due to their sexual encounter (orgasm!!!!!). God made it so don't break it upon the rock of Catholic legalism and the purveyors of such junk. Nuff said!!!!
DeleteSo is alright to do after play with each other?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, if by after play you mean, may spouses continue to stimulate one another after the man has orgasmed. Multiple orgasms, of course, aren't unheard of and there's no reason to stop sexual pleasure after one or both have already had one - so long as the husband always climaxes within his wife.
DeletePlay between man and wife is always encouraged, so long as they are respecting one another and the integrity of the marital act.
Yes that is what I meant by after play. Thank you for your site and your help.
DeleteMy husband would like me to stimulate him to orgasm (and finishing in my mouth) again after we have had sex and he has helped me achieve orgasm via manual stimulation. He feels that since the two ends have been achieved--we were open to life and unitive, then it is ok. After all, if manual stimulation is ok for the woman only in the context of the marital act, then this also falls within the tme frame of being in the marital act. In all other cases a woman would be committing masturbation, but suddenly in the "context of the marital act", it is ok so long as they have sex. Thus the rationale for oral sex after full genital to genital sex.
DeleteThe reason why the 'rules' are different for male and female orgasm is because they do not function the same. The male orgasm is the only way life can be created! Unfortunately, the woman's orgasm is not strictly necessary for this to occur.
DeleteThis is why the man's orgasm always must happen inside his wife, while the wife's orgasm only has to happen during the sexual encounter - before intercourse, during, or after her husband has climaxed.
Male and female orgasms aren't the same, so that's why there are different standards.
Why "unfortunately"? Our Creator, the preincarnate Son of God, Jesus our Christ, did not form the woman so that her orgasm is essential to procreation. Some evidence indicates that for a wife to experience orgasm during intercourse tends to push her husband's semen away from her cervix. This is by no means certain, and even if it does push his semen away, that it impedes fertilization is not necessarily a result. In some societies female orgasm is unknown. The women procreate just as well as in societies in which a mania for female orgasm is in vogue.
Deletewould it be considered licit for the woman to climax AFTER intercourse, using her own hands for stimulation but the husband still present? if that makes sense, or would that be considered masturbation? Another one of your posts gave using "hand stimulation" as an approved way for a woman to reach climax whether the husband's hand or her own, I'm just wondering if this would fall under the same category (i.e. not necessarily DURING the act of intercourse, but AFTER). thanks
ReplyDeleteHm, that certainly is a bit trickier, isn't it?
DeleteI would advise caution here. You don't want to just be masturbating with your husband watching...there has to be something of the act where you two are engaging, together, sexually. Ideally, he would be the one bringing you to climax - could you start yourself off, and then show him what works?
Otherwise, I would suggest you stimulating yourself during intercourse - that way, you are both experiencing pleasure simultaneously.
I entirely sympathise with the questioner, I do not feel at all comfortable with asking my husband to stimulate me - after he has completed the act. On the way, before or during seems fine to me but not afterwards.
ReplyDeleteMy husband has be cheating on me for the past year and we do not have sex, because of his complete sexual involvement with this woman I am filing for a divorce, but after my menstrual cycle I have sexual urges. I masturbate because it helps me to release the tension of not having sex with the man who once gave me that pleasure of an organasm. It it wrong what I am doing?
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry that you are dealing with marital infidelity. Few things are more painful than this. I encourage you to try to see a priest together, if your husband is willing, and perhaps start counceling if at all possible.
DeleteBut to answer your question: yes, masturbation is wrong. I know it is difficult when you are used to being with your spouse to suddenly have no outlet, but orgasm is supposed to direct you towards and unite you with another person; it is not merely for your personal pleasure. Thus, doing it by yourself with the only goal of pleasure, is always wrong.
I am so sorry for your situation. Please don't hesitate to seek out help from a good Catholic therapist (such as can be found here - http://www.exceptionalmarriages.com/).
To be quite blunt, perhaps "unfeeling," no wife is ever justified in divorcing her husband. God does not recognize (as valid) a wife divorcing her husband for any reason. To refuse him his conjugal rights may be, since he may have contracted a sexually transmitted disease from another woman.
DeleteIt is understandable that you have fallen into masturbation. However, it is not justifiable before God. Female orgasm is unnecessary for procreation. At most it may make a small contribution. Many women never climax, and have satisfying sex lives without masturbating either on themselves or by their husbands. Masturbation addiction often originates in immoral associations in unsupervised activities with (usually) older children. Sometimes it is taught by adults, both knowingly and unknowingly wicked.
The only licit source of climax for the female is from the stimulation of her husband's penis within her vagina. The advice to husbands to see to their wives' orgasms is (1) Karol Wojtyla's fallible opinion and (2) licit only if the husband can so stimulate her before he climaxes/ejaculates in her vagina. For him to continue after he has completed his procreative act is no different from using his finger to masturbate his wife. Unless, that is, he knows that he is able to ejaculate a second time. If so, he may continue until then.
Surrounded by a society in which all sorts of perversion and sodomitic behavior is common, is taught in the (pagan) government schools, is discussed (endlessly!) In the media, and is widely practiced by professed Christians (CINOs), it ishard both to resist the pressures and even more so to pull oneself out of them.
But its not divorce if he has cheated on her. Hopefully by divorce she meant annulment.
DeleteWoman can orgasm in more ways than that, as long as it is inside the marriage. Its not as though sexual acts are wrong unless the intent behind them is to have children. Additionally, for many Catholic couples, sex isn't waiting until the man orgasms, or based on the male orgasm.
DeleteOne doesn't have to "intend" to procreate; what is forbidden is to intend NOT to procreate.
Delete"Abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil," not just from active evil. 1Thessalonians 5:22
Meditate:
Does masturbating HONOR GOD?
Does oral sex HONOR GOD?
Does handjobbing one another (mutually masturbating) HONOR GOD?
Does enjoying intercourse while intentionally avoiding procreating HONOR GOD?
We are here not to rush about seeking our own sensuous pleasures but to "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." And the woman is to be an aide well suited to the man. Genesis 2:18, 1 Timothy 2:9-15, 1 Peter 3:1-7
No provision is made for wives to divorce their husbands. Jesus acknowledged that some do (Mark 10:11), by Gentile law, but even if due to violence a wife is driven out of her home, she cannot marry another man for so long as her husband lives (Matthew 19:9b, Mark 10:12, Luke 16:18, Romans 7:2, 3, 1 Corinthians 7:39).
A woman masturbating during sex with her husband may not achieve the orgasm with the masturbation. She can bring herself close and then penile thrusts alone may complete her final ascent towards orgasm. If a man cannot reach orgasm by vaginal sex and only by oral sex then must pull out of the woman's mouth when he feels he is close and then he must ejaculate into her vagina. To ejaculate anywhere else is a sin.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a sin to ejaculate anywhere else, as long as the couple is bonding and open to marriage its fine. http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=507442
Delete"It is not a sin to ejaculate anywhere else, as long as the couple is bonding and open to marriage its fine." How did you understand that from the EWTN link? I understood that oral is only allowed as foreplay but not as a completeion of the act after reading this.
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DeleteHow do heterosexuals think they have standing to condemn homosexuals when these self-righteous heterosexuals are doing the same identical acts as the homosexuals, with the only difference that it is a man doing them with a woman (or visa-versa if you prefer) instead of a man doing them with another man, or a woman doing (some of) them with another woman?
DeleteThe only act that homosexuals, male or female, cannot do is to engage in natural penis-in-the-vagina sexual intercourse as our Creator designed, intends and blesses.
The alliwance for a man to put his mouth on a woman’s genitals, or a woman to put her mouth on a man’s genitals, is UNINSPIRED (“fallible“). Other learned teachers of the faith have taught that God is NOT PLEASED by sexual activities that He did not design, intend and does not bless (give children).
We know that natural (P-I-V) sexual intercourse is God’s purpose in giving us genital organs with which to worship Him. The pleasure that is experienced in following His command (“be fruitful and multiply,” “raise [children] up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord”) is an immediate reward for obedience. Using the genitals merely to obtain sensual pleasure is a theft.
The only foreplay (“before-play”) exemplified in the holy writ is kissing the lips and the man “taking delight” in the woman’s breasts. No example is given of masturbation, mutual masturbation, oral “sex,” anal “sex,” and other acts that arouse our sense of shame even to mention.
The inspired writers had too much shame to particularly name such acts, using rather “uncleanness,” “impurity” (akatharsia) and “lasciviousness,” “wantonness,” “lewdness” and “filth” (aselgeia), terms incorporating the specifics.
The legislatures and courts avoided naming the lewd acts. Instead they used general terms: “the abominable and detestable crime against nature, which should not so much as be named among Christians.”
Once lewd and perverse fellows infiltrated the courts, they used the delicacy of earlier generations as an excuse to call the laws penalizing lewd, lascivious acts as “vague” and thus “unconstitutional” as though people did not know that the “abominable and detestable” perversions were abominable and detestable.
A man may only start sex with a woman if he intends to end it by ejaculating into her vagina. He cannot bring a woman to experience multiple orgasms and then for instance fall asleep without ejaculating into her vagina. That would be a sin. A couple commits a sin if they have sex during an infertile phase of the woman's cycle and they know that they do not want to have anymore children. Even if having another child could kill the woman. Whenever a couple has sex they must have the intent to want further children, they can only prefer to have another child later. They must therefore stop having sex after they have decided they do not want anymore children, because at that point they are not open to new life but are just using the natural cycle as a contraceptive method.
ReplyDeleteYou're kind of an idiot. You are a perfect example of extremism and you should seriously go to confession yourself. Oh and hopefully you are not breeding. Sex between husband and wife is perfectly acceptable and allowable even after procreation years are behind them.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI have a slightly different problem. I am a new convert and am trying to understand what the limits are inside a marriage. I understand the need for the man to climax in the wife but my question is about fantasy. I have used fantasy since I can remember to facilitate orgasm for me, which is extremely important to my husband. he is very disappointed, more than me, if I fail to reach orgasm. I really don't want to fake as that seems too deceitful. So, I have come to rely on fantasy.Always the same, always includes my husband but also another unknown female. This is not anyone I know and is generally faceless and I don't actually have any same sex tendencies. I just fine this type of threesome very erotic for some reason. I am assuming this is a problem from the Catholic perspective. So, I am correct with that assumption? if yes, do you have any suggestions on how to break this 30 year habit?
ReplyDeleteWhat about a female orgasming during the abstaining (fertile) part of the cycle, if it is the husband giving her the pleasure without intercourse and without the man ejaculating? After reading Popcak's book, my husband feels that the one rule is that the man has to ejaculate inside the woman but that the woman can climax even if the man does not (e.g. when abstaining with NFP). I tell him I am happy to wait when we can be together fully. He says in the overall context we are open to having children, but just delaying currently, so he would like to give me pleasure without intercourse during the fertile times. Is this allowed? I think he feels sorry for me that during the infertile times of love making, it is more difficult for the female to orgasm, so sometimes I don't manage. He wants me to make up for it during the fertile times when it is biologically much easier to be aroused, and he says he wants to give me this pleasure out of his love for me (I don't ask for it). I am confused and not sure this is allowed even though I see my husband's good intentions. Please advise.
ReplyDeleteIntentionally seeking sexual climax (orgasm) outside natural sexual intercourse is disallowed. If you will research historical Christian doctrine on sexual matters you will find this to be so.
ReplyDeleteSexual stimulation by other than natural sexual intercourse with a woman's lawful husband is a sin. If a woman is inadvertently being stimulated, such as by vibration of a motor vehicle, by bicycle riding, and the like, she must change her seating position, get a different bike seat that doesn't stimulate her genitals, do something to stop the stimulation.
If she is having sexual arousal from sex dreams, she should read the Bible, pray, read wholesome non-sexy books, etc. before going to sleep. If the sex dreams and sleep orgasms do not stop, she is not guilty if she is doing what she reasonably can to discourage them. She should seek marriage (to a Christian man) as apostle Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth that Christians should marry to avoid fornication (sexual misconduct).
Contraception was disallowed from the earliest Christians until 1853, when the Catholic Church first allowed NFP (the rhythm method was all they knew then) as a less immoral act than Onanism. It was not to be recommended generally to all married persons.
Since 1853 (reaffirmed in 1880) liberalism has expanded this "less immoral" act to a positive virtuous act.
According to historical Christian teaching, intentionally avoiding procreation by married persons is a particularly grave sin, an affront to God our Creator, Jesus our Master, Who bought Christians with His precious blood. Considerations of overpopulation and the like are to be left to God. Are too many Christians a problem? Only to the devil and his adherents.
I am a retired professor of philosophy (Niagara University) and am still teaching free classes. (See aquinasphilosophy.com) I have been teaching Thomistic ethics at the graduate and undergraduate university level since about 1980. I have to take issue with your reading of the wife's obligations regarding completing the act after her husband has reached orgasm.
ReplyDeleteThe very solid Thomist theologian Germain Grizez, in his moral theology book, The Way of Jesus, Vol. II, ch. 9, writes: "... acts by the husband or the wife intended to intensify to orgasm her sexual arousal in continuity with any complete act of marital intercourse belong to that intercourse, and so they are marital, even if done during foreplay or after the husband’s ejaculation and withdrawal." Note that this refers to acts “of the wife” to herself “after the husband’s ejaculation and withdrawal.” It says nothing about him having to be in the room. Such a circumstance, though perhaps desirable, is incidental to the essence of the morality of her act.
St. Alphonsus writes that “… both mutual and solitary acts … if they are referred to copulation now being consummated, are without doubt permitted.” Heribert Jone, in his standard reference work, Moral Theology, used by many priests, writes (n. 752) that “wives who do not obtain complete satisfaction may procure it by touches immediately before or after coition, since the husband may withdraw immediately after ejaculation.”
Two points: While it might be more proper to the husband to remain and assist his wife (if he can), nothing here places an obligation on the wife to “keep him in the room.” Also, one must recall that there is no obligation for the husband and wife to obtain “one to one” orgasms, i.e., the wife may require more than one orgasm to obtain complete satisfaction. Other competent theologians have made this latter point.
In a word, the wife has a right to complete her satisfaction as long as the marital act is completed, regardless of the actions of her husband thereafter. It is to be understood, of course, that all this is within the context of a sincere intention by both parties to complete the marital act in its essence, as well as a sincere intention on the part of the wife to be completing this coital act here and now being placed. This latter is the proper role for a prudential judgment by the wife that her acts are intrinsically connected to the marital act itself. It is not, in my judgment, measured by clock minutes or husband distance, but by an honest and prudential attempt to fulfill the essential nature of this marital act here and now being posited.
One point of clarification: I am absolutely not condoning masturbation in any fashion whatever. The question is not whether a wife can commit the act of masturbation after naturally completed intercourse with her husband, but rather whether her act of completing her own orgasm constitutes the sin of masturbation or is merely the licit completion of the legitimate marital act. If it is the latter, then no sin of masturbation has taken place at all.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the Magisterium has never ruled in a definitive way on this delicate issue.
It appears that some Catholic authors argue that the husband is allowed to assist his wife to achieve sexual climax as long as there is a moral unity between his actions and the act of marital union.
One can understand why this is a delicate moral issue upon which good Catholics may hold differing positions.
Good grief. When I read some of these blogs -like this preceding one - I regret with a good portion of my heart that I am a Catholic. All this detail in regard to love-making is disturbing and, basically, dishonest. Sincerity is a highly valued virtue, but to be so robotic and precise is the opposite of sincerity - especially sincerity during the sexual act. I have read in these blogs that one person even objects to sexual intercourse after menopause; see what happens to this line of BS when you follow it too closely to its natural conclusion: it is insanity. IMO, the Church has made great strides in matters of sexual union and what is moral, but it still has a way to go especially in regard to older couples who have no chance of conceiving.
DeleteThe Church is not wrong in her moral teachings as expressed in the Magisterium. The rules for older couples, post menopause, are the same as for younger ones. Just because it is a love-procreative act does not mean it is wrong to place it unless one is actively seeking pregnancy. All that is required in that specific aspect is that one is not directly trying to prevent pregnancy by contraceptive actions or methods.
DeleteThese moralists expect too much from human beings.
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ReplyDeleteSo Onan just completed a marital act outside Tamar's vagina? H'mmm. I was misled to think he was practicing coitus interruptus or, heaven forbid, whipping his schlong!
ReplyDeleteWhat to do if husband stimulates his wife to orgasm manually or orally and himself does not ejaculate at all. Wife struggles to orgasm during normal unity during infertile times. During fertile times orgasm is easy to achieve due to the natural hormones assisting but currently cannot attempt to conceive due to health reasons temporarily. Husband is unhappy wife does not get pleasure most of the month so he does this to wife. Husband says he finds this loving and bonding and gets annoyed if wife refuses to allow him to do this for her. Wife gives in to keep husband happy who is convinced there is nothing wrong with female orgasm on it's own if it is the husband doing it for her. He understands that if he ejaculates that must always be inside the wife. As it is the male orgasm that is linked to life not the womans. Any advice please.
ReplyDeleteWe are currently postponing pregnancy for health reasons after a miscarriage. My husband knows that sex is more enjoyable during the fertile times and to make up for the current temporary absence he likes to bond with me by stimulating my nipples. This feels as if it almost could bring me to orgasm alone! I don't think it has caused full climax but semi. Is this OK? My husband wants to do something pleasurable for me at the right time of my hormones for fertility. As at other times nipple stimulation is actually annoying.
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